[Vietnamization] Unofficial transcript by Ms. Theary Seng in English of RFA Chun Chanboth's interview with Um Sam An, Sok Touch, Ny Chariya re discovery of official maps at UN

Re: Official maps of Article 2 Constitution found at UN Library by CNRP parliamentarian Um Sam An, 8 October 2015



Re: កិច្ច​ពិភាក្សា​ ស្ដី​អំពី​ ផែនទី ​ដែល​លោក អ៊ុំ សំអាន ទើប​រក​ឃើញ ​នៅ​អង្គការ​ សហប្រជាជាតិ | Discussion re maps newly found at UN by Um Sam An

Interview / RFA Khmer | 8 October 2015

RFA Chun Chanboth: In order to better understanding the issues surrounding the maps, we’ve invited 3 guests: [CNRP] MP Um Sam An, Dr. Sok Touch, ADHOC Ny Chakrya.

  

In truth, the maps announced yesterday by HR Um Sam An that he found them at the UN—whether they’re genuine or fake—we also have these maps sent to us from those managing the library at the UN (NYC).  Upon viewing these maps, some are published in 1926 (re-printed in 1952), some published in 1952, and some others published in 1953.

My first question is for Dr. Sok Touch: will you re-request from UN?

[Govt researcher] Dr. Sok Touch: How many panels did HE Um Sam An find?  I have 10 panels from UN, 9 of these 10 are exactly identical to those of the government’s.  The other panel is wrong; it’s opposite to what we have; it’s in the territory of Vietnam.  That’s point one.

Point two: UN is not a flakey institution; it is serious to respond to what the govt wants, because the govt has lodged a request; and this request is not an inquiry here or there; it was a written request, not by word of mouth.  That is to say: Please provide maps that were deposited at the UN in the 1960s, meaning deposited between 1963-69, for verification.  The UN searched in Geneva as well as New York; could not find; they only found 18 panels.  And those 18 are ones showing [US?] violation— Let me emphasize again: And if the UN is this flakey—this is what HE [Um Sam An] is saying—it is a matter inappropriate of the UN.  Those bearing responsibility are not from my mistakes, not those of govt, nor those of opposition party.  It is the responsibility of the UN which acted inappropriately.

Or, if the case, if there is another request, it is my belief that the govt will not again send a written request.  Why will not the govt write?  There are three purposes: 1. It has already written, not only to the UN but also to the superpowers, the three big ones: France, England, the US. 

Point 2: we have received the maps in the UN, the 18 panels, and they’re identical to what we have now.  And the most important, we have taken the maps from France sent by Mr. Francois Hollande via the Embassy based in Cambodia, that the opposition, that Funcinpec, that CPP and govt, as well as research group and the media that have cameras in the hundreds, have shown that they are the same, that nothing was unusual. 

Another point:  There are 10 panels.  What HE Um Sam An posted I have and they are the same, with only one panel different, technically speaking.

Another point: What HE Um Sam An has said, doing it this way, it’s not appropriate.  During the verification, HE Um Sam An was invited; he did not attend.  I personally telephoned him; he said he was on mission.  When one rejects something, does one have the documents in hand already or not?  Does one already have sufficient documents from the govt?  Does one already have the documents from France?  It’s not only a matter of one taking from the UN to form the base of rejection of another.  This is inappropriate for the researcher(s), inappropriate for the politician(s) that accuses another but himself does not have what the other has.  This is a dangerous matter for the politician(s).  I’d like to underline anew this point.

RFA:  You answered more than my question.  I asked whether you will write.  You answered that not only will you not write, but the govt will also not send a written request again, and places this blame on the UN.  Before I go to HE Um Sam An, I’d like to inform that we at RFA also received directly from the UN library, we received 23 panels.

[click on image to read English translation of this Art. 2 of Constitution]

CNRP Um Sam An:  The official maps are ones deposited with the UN.  And the maps I found, I only want the govt to verify them, official or not, same or not.  These maps deposited at UN are official ones and they correspond to the ones of Article 2 of the Constitution.  The govt has yet to review these maps and verify them, yet have concluded they’re not the correct ones, they presumed before seeing them, it’s not  logical.  The govt should verify them first; and the ambassador posted at UN saying on RFA that he will go to verify them, that’s proper.  We should all verify; if they’re proper, we should use them.  These are maps recognized by the Geneva Conference of 1954 where all five superpowers participated and where the 3 countries of Indochina, including Vietnam, also recognized these maps of this international conference.  And it was France who distributed these maps.  If the govt rejects these maps, will not request these maps, it makes the people wonder why the official maps are not being used.  Because the maps the UN gave earlier are UTM 1/100,000, ones used to complaint against US bombings; they’re not the official ones.  Even the govt said these maps are not what they wanted.  I clearly asked the [UN] library administration: why the govt didn’t point/take to these maps.  They said, we showed to the govt officials but the govt delegation refused to take them, what do we know.  UN S-G Ban Ki Moon’s written response to Hun Sen is, they invited the delegation to see [these maps], then afterward the library manager reported to Ban Ki Moon, then Ban Ki Moon wrote according to what they agreed, between the library manager and the govt delegation.  Thus, we cannot blame the UN library management of wrongdoing.  Because, as I’ve said, the library manager says they don’t even know the content of Art. 2 of the Cambodian Constitution.  Only the Cambodian delegation knows what kind of maps they’re looking for.  There are many kinds of maps there: there are maps UTM 1/100,000 of US, maps complaining about US bombings, maps Bonne 1/100,000.  Mr. Chunboth of RFA also saw the email from the UN.  Therefore, this is not a difficult matter; these maps for sure exist.  The govt should take these maps to show the people so they may be satisfied.  It is these maps that bring about national reconciliation, reconciliation between Khmer and Khmer.  These are official maps, internationally recognized.

RFA: When RFA contacted the permanent representative to the UN, he said he will look into it.  Mr. Hun Sen also said he’s still searching for the Bonne 1/100,000 map, even if at this point, only the UTM 1/100,000 map has been found.  We heard from Dr. Sok Touch that if this is really the situation, then the blame rests on the UN for not giving the right maps when it has it.

Ny Chakriya: …

RFA: In a statement of clarification issued by the Council of Ministers today, there’s strong accusation against Mr. Um Sam An, that this is an evil act, ultra-nationalist instigator, breaker of national peace, that he is a violator of Constitution, looks down on highest national institutions; in it, that he violates Parliament, Senate, the Royal Govt, even the King.  The statement concludes with a threat that govt has the duty to consider seriously legal measures in order to protect the Constitution as well as the national harmony of Cambodia as a whole.  This is one threat toward Um Sam An. 

HE Um Sam An, what is your reaction to these accusations?

CNRP Um Sam An:  To the contrary, this is not a demeaning of high national institutions.  Rather, I am helping these high national institutions to find the official maps, ones deposited with the UN. … No need to send another written request.  Just ask the UN.  If I, only an MP, can receive these maps, surely the UN permanent representative should be able to request these maps.  The maps of the govt, we do not know clearly their sources.  Var Kimhong, when he showed his maps at the Council of Ministers, said his maps came from the UN.  Afterward, the UN in its response to Mr. Hun Sen, said it doesn’t have the maps requested, Mr. Var Kimhong mumbled he doesn’t know what’s going on, whether maps were deposited with the UN or not.  He doesn’t have clear sources.  Then, Dr. Sok Touch said the maps came from that library.  The maps of govt have Vietnamese stamp, which made the people suspicious and has signatures dated from 1985 of Mr. Ly Van Leu (sp?) and Mr. Dith Munty.  Whereas Ms. Kuy Pisey said the govt’s maps are leftover copies in Cambodia.  However, according to Mr. Kong Korm who was a senior official in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that during the 1980s, Vietnam upon seeing maps of Cambodia, took them away.  See, these maps do not have clear sources.  To take maps at UN, they have clear source and they are official.  The maps sent by the UN, the govt said they’re not what they wanted; they’re maps complaining against US bombings.  Whereas maps from France are also not official.  The official ones are ones deposited at UN.  Govt should take these maps for verification with their own maps in order to have to national agreement as well as the protection of territorial sovereignty.

RFA:  Are Mr. Um Sam An’s actions evil or helping the nation?

Ny Chakriya:  Duty of Govt is to protect Constitution. …

RFA:  Dr. Sok Touch, should Mr. Um Sam An be praised or be put in prison for these new finds?

[Govt researcher] Sok Touch: In according to the Constitution, everything HE Um Sam An says is all wrong!

To be continued...